Issues of masculinity and unresolved issues of status

[x-windansea-x.livejournal.com]

[This was originally a response to a post, but I thought it brought up good points, so I want to get others' feedback. The original post is several posts down.]

Masculinity is, of course, very important to men. But I think there's an online trend of "promoting" or at least "studying" masculinity and I think the trend, its practitioners and many things associated with it are pathetic and effeminate.

I won't say anything new about masculinity - a desire for dominance; persistence; pride; maybe wisdom. But I try to imagine great men from history and I cannot, AT ALL, imagine them worrying about masculinity as such. I'm reading a book about Hassan ibn-Sabbah right now (master of fortress Alamut and founder of the Ismaili Assassin sect) and I cannot picture him thinking about masculinity.

Nor can I picture even his novices, who are described as just young men undergoing military and diplomatic training, as worrying about this. They act (and I believe, think) like normal men act (and think) around one another.

I was, however, thinking about STATUS - now, status is probably more important. I had this discussion yesterday: what if you have healthy self-esteem and you are in order but your social and sex lives are not in order. You seem normal, decently risky, etc, but -- people aren't thrilled about you. Now, sure, you can treat it with indifference (which I guess would be masculine) but then at the end of the day you'd still be by yourself as opposed to partying with fun, sexy people. I haven't thought of an answer to this yet.

 

Comments

[hurlingdervish.livejournal.com]

two thoughts.

1- why would you post real-men-don't-contemplate-masculinity in a forum called mens studies?

2- perhaps if you knew the answer to question 1, you would not be wondering why people don't want to hang out with or fuck you.

[x-windansea-x.livejournal.com]

LOL, wow, kids, okay, you keep living on your level. I've had years of both post-grad education and self-reflection, and this is what I've come up with. If the best you can do is call me pathetic and offer a picture of you flexing, I really needn't comment.

[ph290.livejournal.com]

if you indeed have studied on a post-grad level, you would most certainly also know that asking questions about the world and it's inabitants is the essence of doing research. That's what we do in all fields of research, albeit we consider different kinds of questions relevant in differnt fields, and we use diffent methods to find answers. To question the whole point of a field of study with the argument "I think it's pathetic" really makes one wonder why you bothered to study at a post-grad level at all.

[misterandersen.livejournal.com]

I notice all your fine examples come from times when the concept of what it meant to be a man/male/masculine was quite concrete and unchallenged by the competing - and might even say anththetical - ruminations on the concept of feminity.

For crying out loud, "military and diplomatic training" was simply an extension fo masculinity. Men fought for and ruled nations. The idea of a woman doing something like that was aberrant to the point of hilarity and heresy. Men didn't have to worry about women competing for their jobs, their privileges or indeed their status.

Treating such a thing with indifference isn't masculine - there are plenty of women eyeing up a career as a spinster too. Being passive is generally seen as feminine trait.

[notuntill.livejournal.com]

"Masculinity is, of course, very important to men." Personally, no, I couldn't care less about such ridiculous subjective concepts that are used to harass and persecute our sex. There is no such thing as "masculinity," no criteria for what makes a person "really" a member of any sex. There are only individual people, who all have the right to their own personalities, traits, and mannerisms.

[ahimsa422.livejournal.com]

First of all let me state that 1) yes, I am a woman, and 2) I am making this post in a community dedicated to mens studies. Being that as it is, my comments are probably unwelcome, and certainly have no professional credibility, but I was browsing and this post seemed interesting so I will add my opinion. If you must flame me, please do it constructively.

First of all, I can understand your thoughts concerning historical figures and their masculinity. History paints an over-glamorous and often exaggerated view of its events and people. Although it is impossible to know for sure, these historical men that you emulate most likely had some of the same worries and insecurities that contemporary men do. History just leaves that part out.